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Forum:Indoctrination Theories
I found this process a weak link in the logic chain of the game, as it is somewhat similar to what vampires used to do centuries ago before twilight. In other words, i may buy a physics phenomena that defies quantum physics due to whatever reason there is (maybe space distortion or working in a different dimension outside of space-time or the dark matter they claim was the idea behind element zero), but im not going to buy the evil mind eating theory. But looking deeper into the subject i find the idea easier and easier to swallow. In fact, i think that something like this is actually possible in real life, provided an entire mapping of the human neocortex http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocortex is complete. Since the neocortex is the part of the brain responsible for higher level thinking, attacking the neurons here might force on the brain a different view of the world, which is what Indoctrination is all about. Course, this is still too vague, so we need to go deeper into the cells in order to make this feasible. Basically, Indoctrination can be implemented as an RNA virus that attacks the target's DNA And performs minor changes in it to force-evolve it in the direction it wants. Also you need to take into account that most brain cells are there from birth, so this virus has to attack existing cells, as well as changing the replication results to fit the new pattern. Minor changes as changing an hydrogen molecule into an helium might be enough. The virus would probably be air-borne in order to infect the targets in close proximity and not cause them any suspicion. This is very similar to what legion described Soverign did to the geth in ME1, however it is much more complicated that changing one number. Another concept i didnt gave much thought was Harbringer's Indoctrination, which apparently was stronger. I think the reason for this is obvious when you consider the said above. Unlike Indoctrination on a sentient being, the collectors were entirely engineered by the reapers, so they know the hardware - They couldve installed a "back door" into each mind like a remote server, which they would be able to access (with, say, a remote set of computer-collector interface). About biotic boosts - The power source for the Indoctrinated body could be a small element zero core connected to the interface. Upon activation, this power source may be connected to the main neural system and thus increase somehow the biotic abilities of the individual. I wonder, if there are other theories regarding the process, and since i fell in love with mine, i cant think of anything else, so i want to hear other things i mightve overlooked or something more detailed. Theories are fun when they seem to work! besides, i despise the "if it works - dont poke it" approach. Ill poke it until it falls apart, and then ill put it back together, just to prove i can. --41464 20:26, August 22, 2011 (UTC) Um, honestly, not to be rude or anything, I think the fact that it is a video game means it doesn't have to make sense. There are games out there that have unicorns and demons and people don't go questioning why and how. Your theory does, however, make sense. The only thing is that if that was how they did it, that would mean that the Reapers would possibly abduct some of each species beforehand in order to make a virus that is suitable for the DNA of a species and have to go and find each Reaper artifact and then implement the new virus, since it is unlikely that the same virus can infect all sentient beings over the millions of years that the Reapers have done this. I find this unlikely, since the fact that there was a 37 million year old derelict Reaper makes me believe that if they wouldn't even go back for an ally, why go back to change the artifacts? Especially since many are in places often away from population centers, thus making it seem as if all that effort would truly be wasted. I think it is more of some sort of transmission that sentient beings don't seem to notice, or possibly the whole video game idea makes it impossible to find a plausible theory. It could be some form of science that we have yet to discover, which basically plays back into the whole video game thing, which would mean it may or may not exist, hence making it an unreal explanation. Only other thing I can thing of is something similar to your idea, except possibly for it to be nanobots which possibly do what you say they do, but go into a person and analyze the DNA, then created a virus afterwards. That could be possible, since the Reapers have technology that is much more superior than those of any race. This also has a flaw, since it seems that people only become indoctrinated when around Reaper objects for long periods of time, basically an hour or two wouldn't do anything but this idea would mean if they were infected with the nanobot they should, theoretically, get indoctrinated even if they moved across the galaxy. It could, however, be possible that the nanobots only analyze the DNA and then send data back to the Reaper object which then makes the virus and releases it in the local area. That solves the problem of having to be in proximity, but does not solve the problem of why it takes time to indoctrinate AND has to be in proximity. The only thing I can think of would be that since the virus is slowly changing their DNA to comply with the Reaper's commands that it could possibly need to have the Reaper object continuously make tweaked forms of the virus? I'm more into physics than biology so I can't theorize if one virus would be enough to do it with changes to the DNA of the species that is about to be indoctrinated, but if one virus would be enough then this theory still has a flaw that needs to be solved. 04:09, August 27, 2011 (UTC) ---- Personally, I believe that it is theoretically possible and feasible for indoctrination to work in practice but the technology would be difficult to create or visualize. I remember reading somewhere that the majority of human actions and thoughts and controlled through the release of electrical currents and stimulus that travel throughout the neural network in our brain as well as the release and control of certain chemicals and proteins etc. Therefore, it seems logical that some sort of object (in this case reaper artifacts) could be radiating some sort of radiation that changes the way such currents and chemicals are released and controlled, usually very slowly. The change would be small at first as such changes should usually target low level thoughts and actions, say the things we do by instinct and move up from there slowly influencing our larger and more major decisions. In a way it is like the geth and the "heretics" or the movie inception if any of you have watched it. Spoilers Ahead!!!!! the change would happen in low level brain functions first otherwise the subject/victim might notice something was wrong due the the brains retention and usually difficultly with dealing with large changes in actions and decisions. That way the victim would slowly believe what the reapers wanted s/he to believe without him/her ever noticing that his/her personality was changing and thus the victim would ally with the reapers like it was a logical derision even if they had previously thought the reapers were evil. The same is with the geth in which a small difference in basic functions in the geth program caused them to have a different view on organics and the reapers which was like a 0.000001 difference in numbers. The radiation theory seems more logical to me as you would have to stay close to it and for extended periods of time for the effect to fully take over though certain things can slow down or speed up the process. That is why i believe that almost none of the people noticed that they were being indoctrinated before it was too late or being reminded by others and that all of them spent extended periods of time close to the objects as well as the subtle personality changes that happened over time. Just my 2 cents. Feel free to disagree or comment or flame if you must my post. =D ------- LoLsauce Posted on 7:58 August 27,2011 ::Hmm, that sounds plausible. The radiation would have to be low enough levels not to harm the rest of the body. There is a problem with that theory though, the turians are more resistant to low levels of radiation due to evolution on a planet that allowed more radiation to enter the atmosphere. Saren was indoctrinated, so either turians take longer to indoctrinate due to their resistance to radiation or it is done another way. 02:28, August 28, 2011 (UTC) ---- Well it could be something like that as well. I doubt all wave lengths have been fully mapped, moreover since with the string theory we have 11 dimensions to deal with, this could be something from a dimension we dont even know exists. This is not why i am excited and overworked, the reason is i find this idea feasibly, if not plausible, and this is the troubling part - i think that this is something we can actually produce over time, in case of a virus at least. Ill address a couple of points that rose before: - Regarding the source for the virus's engineering: The moment the reapers entered the citadel, they had a huge amount of specimens to test upon. For the reapers to develop a virus like this seems rather easy in a fair amount of time (even a couple years) and not unacceptable given the information it took them decades to eradicate the protheins. Plus, the vanguard could easily get him some test subjects like the derelict reaper did: just let those fools board you, and perform whatever tests necessary. - Why i doubt low level changes will happen in organics: Low level changes could be fatal, and though this is the end goal, its not the goal of indoctrination. Ill explain: low level changes would be altering the neuro-paths in the brain, changing functionality, changing organ control (possible multiple system failures at this point), basically this will alter the being altogether. It seems sufficient only to edit (in man's case) only the neocortex. The change could be slowed by, lets say, increasing the mortality rate of the virus's cells, or slowing its metabolism. I see indoctrination as altering the personality (which according to current knowledge, is stored in the neocortex). - Time it takes to get indoctrinated: This looks like a parameter that the engineer of the virus/radiation can control to some extent. It seems that the only variable that cannot be directly taken into account is the individual response of each target to the same method. Ill try to address the radiation, although to me something i cant research or read about a load of information is equivalent to drek (XD). As far as i know, if we take ionizing radiation from atom bombs, the effect on living cells is devastating, but what does it do exactly? well, i didnt find anything better than "it kills them". As far as i know, ionizing = separating electrons from the core. My guess? ionizing radiation, when its strong enough, destabilizes the Cell's structure (like an earthquake, actually) and this causes failure. Now, we dont want that. Maybe a diffrent type of radiation then? not sure. Heres why: If i recall turians had a special type of skeleton as well.. something with a metal.. and usually those are harder to ionize, thus making them directly more resistant - im sure this is the MAIN reason we are given this information, which would imply that indoctrination is indeed achieved by ionizing radiation. Why not a virus? dont know, guess no one there thought about DNA altering.. oh well.. In saren's case, i actually think that he was mildly indoctrinated, and only after Shepard knocked some sense into him did sovereign implant him to control him. Then again, we know nothing of this, and can only speculate. Oh, im not so good with forum editing, please someone edit the post with the wierd quote thing.. i cant read it and dont want to unintentionally delete texts out of there. --41464 13:02, August 28, 2011 (UTC) :Don't indent the text, otherwise that's what will happen. You need to cut out all the spacing before the very first letter of those two messages written earlier, to get rid of those boxes. Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem 13:22, August 28, 2011 (UTC) ::Addendum: If you want an indentation, use colons (":") to do the indenting for you. Just like I did now. Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem 13:23, August 28, 2011 (UTC) ::: Hmm i think it worked.. thx for instructions, I took the liberty of adding separation lines coz the text is long xD --41464 13:31, August 28, 2011 (UTC) My point about the whole specimen thing is that the Reapers would have to go and give the information to each and every Reaper artifact that existed in order to have them be able to indoctrinate each and every race that comes in contact with them. They could do a wireless transmission but unless they have the technology to transmit it over vast amounts of space without large space dishes then I find that unlikely since they are not often around such equipment. It could be possible, considering the Reapers have technology that is so much advanced over all other races. There is also one problem with the specimen gathering, from the first game, it was found out that the Reapers find out where planets are that contain sentient beings and basically only go to them unless they pick something up. There is a problem, because the Council forbids the opening of new Mass Relays unless people know where they are going, so it is possible that many other sentient beings exist that they would not of been able to take subjects of. Also, since they did not succeed in the first Citadel attack, it would be possible that there are species that are sentient but not widely known about due to the Council forbidding anybody from contacting the planets, such as the yahg. It could be possible that the Reapers don't know about them or any other races in their position, but it seems like the Reapers are very confident that they can indoctrinate everyone. Also, the 37 million year old Reaper probably didn't have any contact with the other Reapers for quite awhile, and I doubt it received the results from testing on species if it happened. Humans were still indoctrinated on it though, so I believe it is a way besides abducting people to test on. Small nanobots seem more plausible, or the radiation idea. 00:05, August 29, 2011 (UTC) If anything, I'd have to go with the radiation idea. Radiation doesn't necessarily mean damaging nuclear radiation, there are more innocuus forms, like the electromagnetic radiation coming off of your computer, or cell phone, or TV- many incedents where people thought their houses were haunted, they felt like they were being watched, feeling paraniod, were because of faulty wiring, leaking EM radiation affecting their minds. Considering the many similarities of the different species of mass effect leads me to believe that most species' brains function similarly, and that the reapers have a complex system of applied radiation to make people more receptive/confused, so they can manipulate them for their own purposes. 02:17, October 14, 2011 (UTC)